I think if we can come back to okay, maybe I'm not super happy with where I am right now, but can I love myself now in the moment, and work toward that goal, whatever it might be, and give myself grace and love and forgiveness, and I think that's a big one, and permission, and then be able to explore what do I really want?
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Uplift For Her. I'm your host, Dr Mallorie Cracroft, and we are here to discuss all things women's health and wellness from an integrative lens. And we have a very fun conversation today, and a really special guest. We are talking about sex and sexuality with Erica Lemke. Erica Lemke is a therapist and sexologist and sex coach, and so we are going to dive into some good stuff today. But disclaimer, this is not a great episode for you to have on with your kids in the back seat. So make sure that you're listening to this at an appropriate time. Put your headphones in. But other than that, you're going to get a lot out of this. So thank you for coming, Erica. We're really happy you're here.
It's such a pleasure. I'm so excited to talk about all this. Thank you so much for having me.
Oh for sure, I want to tell our listeners just a little bit about you. So Erica Lemke is a certified sex and relationship Coast coach and board certified sexologist based in Salt Lake City, Utah. Her practice is called Sex coach, SLC. She specializes in working with those who are in midlife and beyond, helping them to explore, embrace and express their sexuality with joy, confidence and pleasure. She sees adults, adult clients of all genders and sexual orientations, and her approach to working with clients is one that is co creative, holistic and pleasure focused. So thank you so much. I am excited just to dive right in. Tell me a little bit about what is a sexologist and a sex coach, and how did your profession evolve? Because you were previously working as a therapist, a mental health therapist.
That's correct. So, sexology is basically the study of how people do and think about sex, I mean, in the very, very, very nitty gritty. And so sex coaching, I think of it, it's life and applied coaching. That's how I work with clients, and what is in the realm of sex and sexology. So sexology is also about studying intercourse, studying about different ways that people have sex, dysfunction, all of the things that are kind of associated with this kind of interdisciplinary lens about sex. So I had probably about 300 plus hours of that type of training in this field prior to going into this so I looked at just about everything that had to do with sex and sexuality, which is really pretty fun.
Yeah, that's amazing. And, man, it's so much more complex than I think we give it credit for, right? I think we kind of think that it's this somewhat simple part of our lives, but it's actually a pretty major part of our lives. Yeah, tell us a little bit about sexuality and why it's so important. That may seem kind of obvious at first to some people, but I think that it's really easy to minimize the importance of sexuality in our lives, right? If we say, like, who are you? Well, I'm a mom, I'm a daughter, I'm a wife, I'm a doctor, we don't normally come up and say, I'm a sexual being, right? Like, why? Why is it so important, and why should it be a big part of who we are and and should it be part of who we are?
Well, I think sexual energy is within all of us, right? And doesn't mean that our sexual, sexual energy is as having sex, but it's, it's our life force, yeah, essentially. And, you know, having sexual well being and health is in the overall spectrum of health and well being as well. Yeah. So, you know, in that wellness wheel, that life wheel, right? That is a piece of the pie of our holistic selves and and for some people, you know, it doesn't really matter to them and, and that's okay. It really is a very personal choice. But for those who do find it important, I mean, I think it's a way to not only connect with ourselves, because we are our first sexual partners, whether we want to believe that or not, we are and we are all, are all sexual beings. But how do we express that? And do we do that just in, in our sense of self, just our solo self, and then how do we express that, also with other partners and and I think sexuality a big part of it is, you know, pleasure is something that I think we all deserve. I think it's our birthright, and so why not be able to share that experience? I mean, if we can do this for ourselves, which is so lovely, but also to be able to share that magical sense with someone else is just truly a beautiful thing to express, I think, in the world.
Yeah, so tell us about sexuality? And sex, obviously, if we think about it, we're thinking just of the act of intercourse, right? And that's one small act. Will you tell us kind of more about what it encompasses and how our sexuality kind of comes into play in the rest of our lives, whether that's connection and intimacy with ourselves and self, love and intimacy with a partner, connection with a partner. What are the ways that our sexuality kind of has a wider reach than just that, that one act of limited time that is sex?
Yeah. Well, I think for me, sexually is a lot about confidence and how you carry yourself, how you feel about yourself every day and and just because you may feel like you're you're, you're a sexual person. That doesn't mean I'm a sexual person. I'm going out and having all of this sex. I think it's also in just the way that we see ourselves as a whole, and in the energy, and then just being able to carry ourselves with having that sense of confidence and assuredness in both ourselves, in that context, but then also in relationship to others. And I think that we all deserve it, but for some people, again, I mean, we're going to talk about, am I normal? Just because someone doesn't think about sex, that doesn't make them abnormal? Yeah, yeah. Because I think there is a spectrum about what sexuality and in our sexual expression can be.
So it seems like there's probably an interplay there of the more confident and the better relationship we have with ourselves, probably the better sex we're going to have, and the more, the better we'll interact with our own sexuality. But the inverse, I would assume is true too, that the better we can show up in our sexuality and in our sex lives, the more confident we would be. Is that true? Do you see that at all?
Or I definitely do, and I do think that for a lot of people who don't feel that way, whether it's, you know, it's it's shame, it's guilt, a lot of pressures that we have at a very young age that carry us through, through, sometimes through your entire adulthood, can give us a sense of, you know, am I? Is this okay for me? Yeah. And even thinking about sex can be something that can be very scary for a lot of people, yeah. And the way that we are our desires and our needs, are they, you know, am I? Am I weird? Because I think this way, am I normal? Am I going to be judged for that? So a lot of it is really, truly embracing all of those pieces of us. And that part of sexuality can be it's it can be small, but it can have such an impact on how we feel about ourselves and how we carry ourselves throughout, throughout life.
Yeah, one of the phrases I think you used in just kind of going through that was using that example of just saying, like I am a sexual being. I think that there are probably a lot of women who I don't know if they would or could say that. Why is that? Why is it so hard for us talking about women in particular? Why is it so hard for us to say, like I am a sexual being? I mean, we know we have sex, right? Because if you've got babies, chances are you've had sex at least once, you know. So we know that we have sex. We definitely have sex organs. You know, we have a vagina. We have other erogenous zones. We feel certain ways when we're touched in certain ways. So the fact is that there are sexual things happening. Why is it so difficult for for some women to say, like, I am a sexual being? Well, I
think a lot of it comes from how, how we were raised and, and let's say, for example, you know, we were three years old in the bathtub, and we were playing with our genitals. We were exploring, yeah, and that's what we are supposed to do as children, right? And, and we were ashamed for that, yeah? And we were said, That's dirty, That's naughty. Don't, don't do that. And then every time we might think about doing that, it kind of reinforces that thought, which also then reinforces the behavior, oh, I can't do that. That's dirty, yeah, that's naughty. And, and then also just the shame aspect of it, too. Social media does not help us at all. You know, being the good girl and playing this type of a you know, whether it's true or not, being seen in that way can have such an impact on on everything else that we do.
And the flip side, right, being seen as only a sexual being, I think, can really erode that sense of self too. So, yeah,
so I think a lot of it is just really being really vulnerable and being very honest and really accepting yourself and saying, I can be a mom and I can be a sexual being. Yeah, I have a lot of clients who deal with that duality a lot, and it's really important to think, okay, yes, you are an independent individual, as well as whatever else you you know you want to be, whatever your hats are, but the more that we can really embrace ourselves in the moment and and really understand that I deserve pleasure, I think it's about being deserving too, and giving ourselves permission to feel those things, to feel
pleasure. And feel, which, you know, a lot of us as women are not very good at saying, No, I deserve to feel pleasure or and not even sexual, but just I deserve things. Yeah, yeah. I think, since you mentioned it, tell us your expert advice for this in terms of having young children, because it's very complicated. I think with the incidence of, you know, not great things happening around sexuality with children and sort of, I don't want to go too much down that that area, but as a mom of young kids, you're trying to have these conversations about, like, no one touches you, you know, you prepare them as they go somewhere new. And you say, like, it's not okay for anyone to touch you. You say stop. You say no, right? We're preparing our children from this sexual safety perspective, and then we're also preparing them for etiquette and manners and hygiene. And we're saying, like, don't touch yourself out in public like this. But it can feel really difficult as a parent to be like, you know, no one touches your genitals, but genitals are good, their natural part, but don't touch them and go wash your hands and don't do it in public. But it's good. It's good, right? Like, so how do you navigate that that seemingly contradictory, like you want to raise your children to embrace their sexuality and their sense of self, and yet there are social constraints of like we don't typically touch ourselves in public. And you can tell them it's private, but sometimes it still gets confusing. Of like, it's private, but wash your hands and don't do it there. But sex is good, you know, tell us how you how you recommend approaching that to parents, not even of young children, I think even of teenagers or, you know, older even,
well, I mean, and it's sex is so taboo, yeah, and so many Yeah, and so many areas, right? Yeah, so, and I think there's just the conversation is because oftentimes the adults don't have enough information, yeah, and feel confident enough to even approach that, right? So, and again, there's, I think it's fear, and I think there's, it's fear for a lot of things. And I mean, I come from a very pleasure based model. I mean, that's what I think sex is all about, but being able to, obviously, age appropriately, you know. So you have to know the age of the child, and not just the, you know, the age chronologically, but also their own, you know, their own emotionality. And how can they handle certain things too. It's, I think it's a very case by case basis, though, you know, and again, though, but saying no and not having anything else to go beyond that, it's bad. Whatever that is, that's the lens that they're going to grow grow up with. They're going to get information from the media and from their friends and from other sources that are typically probably not going to be the best sources, right? So I'm definitely big on, you know, having good sexual education. And you know, sadly, we don't have a lot of that, least for the younger, you know, yeah, you know, even, you know, even in the best places, I think it's still lacking a lot. And but we need better resources for that, because I think it, you know, all kids are going to grow up and become adults, and if we can give them the tools as appropriate as the years go by, to not feel fear and to be safe and to know that, you know, sex can be very pleasurable and wonderful and connective and and all of these things that we don't really share with them because it's more of it's bad. Don't do it because we don't want them. You just want to keep them safe Exactly.
Don't go anywhere near it, and then you'll be safe. But it causes big, big problems for people sometimes, as they start then moving into their more sexual age or sexual self, you know, where they start to become sexual, and they say, like, Wait, I thought this was bad, and I thought I wasn't supposed to do this. Oh, and I like it, like, Oh no, what am I gonna do? I think it becomes really complicated, so you kind of mentioned it, but I think just as a parent, being really open and and having the conversation after conversation after conversation, and it's going to be uncomfortable, and that's okay, yeah, and leaning into that as a parent and just saying it's okay if I feel a little weird about this, and maybe even telling that to your children, you know, like, I don't know the right answers, but I
think that that's the Key too, is to be be vulnerable and be honest and be open and know that, you know, if they're curious, that they will come to you, because that's what we want, right? And you mentioned about parents too, because my lens also went to because I have a lot of clients who feel like, once they have kids, that they don't feel that they can be sexual, yeah, because now they're, in a new role, yeah. And now they're, you know, they might have been well and crazy back in the day, but now we have kids, and so now, you know, now we have to not do that anymore. Well,
let's jump off from there, then. So how does a woman kind of figure out her sexual identity? And I think this is you wrote a book about this thing in particular, right? So we'll, we'll reference that later. But how does a woman, I How does she come to terms with her sexual identity, really, at any point in life, but, but I think especially as we're having kids, and as we're getting older and our lives are busy, I think before we have children, if we don't have children, it's a little simpler. You know, it's you and your partner and you have sex when you want to. Sex, and there's still a lot to address there, but how do you figure out that sexual identity at any point along the way? What are your How do you approach that with clients? Well,
I mean, it's honestly, it's, it's, again, it is very vulnerable, and it is very individual. And I think a lot of us, especially as moms, you know, we have a child, and then we're just giving, and we're giving, we're giving, we're giving and our cup is empty, yeah, and we're still giving, yeah, and so we're burnout on on every level, and don't really think to take the time to like, talk about, and I'm not even talking sexual pleasure. But what brings me joy? What brings me pleasure every day, in the everyday little, the little things, having a cup of tea, smelling the tea, so getting to the sensation. So I would say, start with the the non sexual pleasures that can elicit those feelings of joy, of ease, of comfort and and then just expand from there. So I will give a lot of there's a pleasure principles list in my book, for example, that I will have someone just write down everything that they feel gives them pleasure from a non sexual perspective, and and once they can, and then they practice that, maybe there's some rituals that they they do around that too. Even if it's five minutes a day, and we can say, Oh, I don't have five minutes a day, you have to make the time for yourself to have at least five minutes a day. It's imperative. Yes, it
is imperative. And I really love that idea of of of seeking pleasure first, I just think that we're kind of cut off from our own selves. Sometimes, you know, we're busy, we're really busy, and so you just get things done. And then when you have time to think, you're thinking about your to do list, and you're thinking about other things you need to get done, and then maybe you're zoning out by watching a show or doing something else. And there's, there's just not even the time, unless we make it but it's really easy to say, like, what gives me pleasure? Like, I don't even remember the last time I I thought about that, like, I don't know, but to stop, and it reminds me too, of just mindfulness, right? That that practice of being mindful, and we've talked about that here before, about even with eating. You know, do you stop and do you experience the bite of food. And do you stop and experience nature when you go for a hike? Or are you getting your steps in? Are you getting you know, are you listening to your podcast like, do you just pause and experience that moment? And I think that translates so well into our own sexuality and and intimacy and connection with our partners so
well. And you bring up a good point, because actually, the some of the workshops I've done, we start with an eating meditation, yeah, just to be, be, if anything else, to be present in this moment. How
do you feel things? How
do you feel things? How do you taste? What do you smell? What is how is your body feeling? And I think we are so, we are so not. We are not embodied,
yeah, you know, we
don't have that kind of kinesthetic awareness. We're just kind of walking around. But like, are you feeling the the chair underneath your your seat, you know? Are you, are you feeling the the air on your skin, and all of those things that are like, this is my you know, I'm here, I'm here, and I'm present. And I think a lot of us just, again, we're so busy that we're not even taking the time to even, like, feel the feel the ground underneath our feet. Yeah.
Gosh, I love that so much. I talk a lot about the nervous system and, you know, fight or flight. And I think that that there is that I can't remember the exact quote, but it's something to the idea of, if you are a so many of us live in either the past by perseverating about things that happen or live in the future, by worrying about what's going to happen, and we just skip the present. We just go through our lives living in a different time, before or after. And I think that that's relevant for pleasure and for mindfulness, but let's talk a little bit about how relevant that is for sex and sexuality, because it's one of the main things that I hear from my patients when we talk about a low sex drive, is I can't get my brain to stop, to even know what I like or don't like like. I can't even be in the moment I'm thinking about, you know, that I gotta get him shoes and I've got to get her books and I've got to, you know, do all these things. So how do I, how do I even begin to be present in that moment. Will you talk about that a little bit? Absolutely? Yeah, because
I think that, and I think it, and that's it starts out of the bedroom, to be honest and and that's something I stress honestly, when you were talking about the past and the future and not being present, that I stress is with my probably almost every client that I have, that we don't take the time to be here now. So doing a mindfulness practice, having one minute, there's a om, O, M, M, it's a one moment meditation. I may even have clients start with that because they say I don't have time for it, or I'm not going to do it right. You're going to sit for one minute, and all you're going to do is just focus on your breath, just be and just be this moment, yeah, and you're not, it's not perfect. It's not supposed to be. But just being able to come back, and if the awareness is, oh, I'm thinking about that again, that's okay. You're aware of it, let it go, and then come back to yourself. And I think we just need to keep focusing on that. The more they can do that, the better. And for some clients, I will have specific mindfulness part. Practices a body scan, for example, where the distractions are going to come it's fine. You put them in a bubble, or put them in a cloud, whatever, whatever you want to do, let them go, and your job is to have and it's usually an audio meditation that they have. Them do. They listen to it, and they are just all they're doing is feeling the same sensations in their bodies, different parts, and where are you tense? Where are you relaxed? Where do you feel heat? Where you feel coolness? Just as a matter of being able to acknowledge that, oh, I actually, I'm connecting with my body right now. I'm aware of my body even, maybe even more importantly. So I think when we can do that outside of the bedroom, when we then come into the bedroom and have a sexual experience, we are more poised, and you're already missing it, yeah, to be able to be able to do that with a partner,
yeah, yeah. Gosh, that's so important. Go back a little bit, because I sidetracked you, I think, talk about the idea of pleasure, and kind of, how does one you mentioned just seeking pleasure outside of sexuality, but how does one who doesn't quite know where they fall in terms of their own sexuality, what they enjoy, what they don't enjoy, how do they start to experience that? I think there is, I want to address that there is a massive spectrum when it comes to comfort with sexuality, and oftentimes we feel like the more open and sexual you are, the better, and that if you're approved, then it's bad. And I think that definitely we have different tastes and different different approaches to that. And so some people, they they may want to explore their sexuality and pleasure, but they may not feel comfortable just jumping 10 steps ahead and being like, Oh, I'm a sexual being. Now, you know, so I want to be sensitive to that spectrum, because I really believe that sexuality is important for everyone, and as much as they desire it, it can be important for everyone, and I don't want to exclude people who feel uncomfortable or feel like I'm not ready to take that giant leap. So can you talk about sort of that maybe stepwise approach of people who want to explore pleasure a little bit, but it's not going to be what they find on the internet, of like, well, maybe try different you know, X, Y and Z, what's sort of the stepwise progression to experiencing and understanding your own pleasure? Well,
I would say there, there are a couple of like lists that I would give clients that would say, like a sex menu, for example. Yeah, right. So think about all the things that might be on the buffet, for example. And and what are things like I would even give them like a sheet, because they may not feel like, Here you go. And then do this at home, right? And, and, and take a look at what's out there. And, and some of it is going to feel very Oh, this is, this is a, this is a red zone for me, like, you know, so I think of either yes, no, maybes or red, yellow, yeah, green line.
Give us some examples of just, we want to kind of be pretty. We're going to be sensitive, but also we want to just talk shop here and really understand how, like, What's she talking about? Like, because there are people who are very, very have more of a limited experience with sexuality, and we want to be sensitive to that. But how, what if they want to expand their sexuality? What are some examples of things that are on that list? Are you talking positions? Are you talking toys? Are you talking different behaviors? Tell us more about them. Well,
it can be everything. It can be everything under the sun. But I would say also think about from a very basic think about touch. And there are, there's a spectrum, like dimensions of touch. And most people, they either like, there's friendly touch and there's sexual touch, but there's a lot of other things in between. But we don't have the language to say, I like, I like this type of touch, or in this situation, I would like you to touch me like this. Yeah. So there are exercises that I will give them to explore what types of touch they like. And most of the times when we touch someone else, it's probably because that's the way we like to be touched. Yeah, but at the good times, that is not the way it is. So I'll get for an example. It's called, it's from Betty Barton. She does the wheel of consent. And so it's a three minute exercise where people will take turns, couple. One minute for the one person. Three minutes they get to touch however they wish. And then the next three minutes I'm going to receive again, but I'm going to tell you how I want to be touched instead. So and then, and then they switch because, you know, they switch partners. But even things like introducing a feather, something very, very simple, because our, you know, our skin is the biggest organ in our bodies, right? I mean, our brains are, we're, this is a sexual center, but this, our skin is so much to explore. And so for people who are just kind of entering into that, even just a different type of sensation, whether it's, you know, you like silk, you like little, you know. Little, little things that tickle, or little, little, not, I'm not gonna say needles, that's not the right word. But just like, like your fingernails and like, yeah, so, and even just doing that for yourself, like, not even having a partner necessarily, but how we don't even touch ourselves, yeah, we don't even feel comfortable doing that. So even starting there and figuring out with your own body as this, like this beautiful playground, how do I how do I want to do that? So I think a
question that's going to come up just knowing my patient, my patients that I see, so many of them, are really busy moms and moms of young children. And I think it's one of the things that gets in the way is like, when and where would I even do that? So what is your advice for people who are like, what am I doing this? Am I in the shower? Am I like?
I often say, like, you know, if you have a bath, you know, you you, you arrange it with your partner. You have, even if it's a half hour, do not come in here. Yes, it's a, it's a, do not come. Come in zone. Yes, and it's, it's going back to the the sensuality, the the pleasure, so music, is it candles? Is it flowers? Is it bubble baths? There's some kind of scent. And just being able to languish and again, trying to turn the brain off, even if you're hearing a little one knock on the door saying, Mom, mom, yeah, being able to come back to your body and feeling the pleasure and the sensations that whatever is arising for you, right? So coming back to how your body is feeling, and it's not an easy thing to do, and it's this is not like a one time fix, and then you're off to the races. It takes time, so a ritual of some sort, you know, even something small. And maybe it's you and your partner making a pack like, Okay, this day during the week at this time, yeah, is is my, is my, is my time for me, yeah, yeah, or whatever that means. And even, you know, setting up a date night, you know, a lot of busy parents will say, if you have someone to watch your child for one hour, for one month, one day, one day a month, to find that connection with your partner, for that emotional connection, that intimacy, you know, they're a team. And I think oftentimes, though, when they get in the throes of parenthood, it kind of goes out the window, you know, and they're lucky to even say, you know, give each other kids on the cheek as they're running out the door or whatever. So even finding those small, small moments to reconnect, not only for to ourselves, but also to both loved ones, for sure, what?
How do you so for people who may not have a lot of sexual experience and not a lot of varied sexual experience, or maybe they do, but sometimes people can have a lot of discomfort talking through this. And what is your advice for people who are like, Oh, we don't, we don't talk about sex. Like, I don't even know how I would bring that up with my partner. I don't even Oh, that that feels really awkward to me. That feels really uncomfortable to me. How do you help them kind of go to that next step? Yeah,
well, I kitchen table conversations, is say so, whether it's, you know, not during, not not in the bedroom, and certainly not during a sexual encounter or an intimate moment, because we're vulnerable, and we're usually, you know, literally in, figuratively naked, yeah, that's not, maybe the best time to do it. You may not feel as safe to bring things up, yes, and so, you know, doing it when we're in a neutral space. Hopefully neutral emotions is a good place. And sometimes it's just a matter of, can I have 10 minutes, and what words
would you use then you're going to start a conversation with your partner about sex, about maybe something you want or you want to explore more. How would you how does one bring that up?
Very honestly.
I'm i This is very uncomfortable for me. Yeah. However, this is important also, and I would love to, you know, have a brief conversation. And sometimes it's good to put a time limit on it so then, because they can always come back, you know, and there's and there's always more, but then, especially if you don't know what to say, just sometimes it's even good to set a timer 10 minutes, and then know that that's just an entry point into a bigger conversation, but be vulnerable and be honest like this. This is important, and this is also hard, and it's and I'm nervous, I'm uncomfortable, and this is also really important to me, and I'd love to hear, you know, I'd love to share some some things that I really am curious about, or that I really want to express to you how I feel about this. Yeah.
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well, we have sex and we don't talk about it. And that's, I mean, it's, it's almost harder to talk about sex than it is to have it. Yeah, a lot of people quite, yeah, exactly. So I mean, honestly, it's really a matter of, like, again, it's, it's really stepping into the unknown for ourselves, which can be so incredibly scary, yeah, and if we really want to figure out what we need for ourselves, we need to know that number one, then also, if our if we want our partners to know they they don't read our minds. They can't do that. We can't make assumptions about what we think they should or should not be doing, or what they remember about last time, or whatever the situation is. We have to be very brave and very courageous and say, This is what arouses me, or these are my desires and and again, this is very comfortable for me to talk about, but this is, this is really what I need. I need more time. I mean, I think that's definitely a big one, whether it's foreplay, whatever it might be, but I need more time so I can get aroused, and I might you so. But I think the hard part is, is they're worried about the other person's reaction or their response, and so then they just don't have the conversations. And I think it's just we need to crush that. And what is it? The Conspiracy of Silence, we have to stop that and be brave and open, and even if it's really hard, that is how change happens. Yeah, that's the only way change happens, well, and it's usually very uncomfortable, yes,
and I imagine that the relationship that has the potential to grow so much closer if we have these think about the deep end
with that. And I think that's what happens when we are in more awkward and tough situations. That's usually when we develop that connectiveness and that closeness and and that, I think, also can relate to sex. And what a, what a beautiful I mean me, in the beginning, it's going to be very awkward and strange, but, but, but the the transition to that can be really quite beautiful and connective. And, you know, just huge. Yeah, yeah.
What are, what are some ways that couples can connect outside of sex that are particularly helpful for translating into that sexual experience? Are there you mentioned, like the kiss on the cheek? Are there some things that you think are particularly helpful to say, like, the more that you can do this out of the bedroom, this is going to translate into the bedroom. Because, like you said, I think sometimes we try to fix sex just in the bedroom, and that gets kind of complicated. So what are the things outside of the bedroom that can be particularly helpful?
I would say almost everything.
But I mean whatever they you know, if there's something they love to do, my partner, we love to go dancing, and so dancing is a way that we connect. It's it's playful. And, you know, Emily nagoski has this great book that she talks about emotional floor plan, and based on kind of our emotional state, what can get us into a space of desire and lust and affection more easily. Yeah, whether it's seeking into intelligence. So maybe, you know, there's a hobby that they really love to do together. They build something together, and that makes that that connects them more maybe, if it's exercise, they're taking a hike together, or they're kayaking together. I think all of those things that bring them together with laughter and joy and adventure and even, you know, mind stimulating, you know, all of those things, whatever, whatever those connective tissues are outside. The more they do that, the more that, I think that blends really beautifully when they're actually in the bedroom together.
That's a great answer. Tell me a little bit more about sensuality. So maybe that's that sexual identity is. How does a woman explore that sense of sensuality if she is plagued by feelings of insecurity, maybe about her body, or maybe she's never gone there, like maybe she doesn't see herself as a sexual or a sensual. Being and maybe differentiate those, if that's relevant. But how does a woman start to say, like, this sounds kind of good, like, I want to be more sexual, but like, I don't know what to do or how to start. Yeah.
Well, then again, I think it comes back to whatever our body image is, wherever we our body is in the moment. This is where we are, and I think so often we are looking again in the future. I'll be happy when I'll be happy when I lose those 10 pounds. I'll be happy when I get that new job. But I think if we can come back to okay, maybe I'm not super happy with where I am right now, but can I love myself now in the moment and work toward that goal, whatever it might be, and give myself grace and love and forgiveness, and I think that's a big one, and permission, and then be able to explore what do I really want? Yeah, and the sensuality component for me is, you know, when we can take in again that comes back to the present moment. So if we're feeling and we're smelling and we're tasting and we're hearing and all of those that we are we are paying attention to just living in that life experience that, to me, translates into, oh, I these are things that I'm like, my body is feeling really energized or comforted by these experiences, and how can I then maybe translate that to more of a sexual experience or an intimate experience? And we do have to feel safe in our bodies, and often a lot of us don't. We might trust another person before we trust ourselves. So I think it's also part of like, what do we need to do for ourselves to start trusting, to start listening to our voice, the more that we can trust ourselves, even when it's difficult, that the more that we can do that and trust and feel safe in our own bodies, that we can then express, express ourselves fully to not only ourselves, but to others as
well. And I think that is why sexuality can be fairly complex, because it requires us to feel somewhat comfortable and vulnerable with ourselves and have that self love and that self compassion. Of, you know, the weird things that happen during sexuality. Like, there's nothing very scripted about sex, right? Like, so you've got to have a certain sense of humor and a certain ease of like, oh, this is weird. Like,
such a great point. Because I think people so oftentimes they, I mean, think about again, social media, movies, all of it, right? You know, everyone looks beautiful and the makeup and like, you know, everything is perfect and clean and just right, but that is not the real world, no. And, and so I'll tell a lot of my clients, there's a great sexual intelligence by Marty Klein. He's brilliant, but he he makes us such a beautiful point that, you know, sex is messy and it should be playful and adventurous and silly, and if we can laugh at ourselves in a moment that doesn't go well, yeah, you know, we can have the best relationship and all, and maybe sometimes not have so good sex. Yeah, that doesn't mean that it's the relationship or the sex, right? It's a matter of, okay, I had a really poor sleep and I wasn't ready for this time or whatever happens. But if we can, you know, laugh at ourselves, I think, more importantly than even the other person, and realize like we have an opportunity to try again. And this is okay. This is okay. This is Kate. We've learned from this experience. And it doesn't mean this is the end of and I think a lot of people just think that sex is supposed to be perfect, and it's, it's, it's not ever going to be perfect,
yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's so true. I really liked the example that you were giving talking about sensuality, and I it made me think, like, that's probably a really reasonable exercise to try with your partner, is to close your eyes and to just experience, you know, to feel and to be vulnerable and to be playful, and to kind of turn the attention to them, and then to take back the attention and say, Okay, now it's my turn, and I'm going to do that. So I like that you shared that.
And I would say with a caveat too, is like and talk about consent, yes, for sure, consensual for sure, right? Because, I mean, that's we. It's not a given. And I think that's really wise, and I think a lot of people assume that, but I think it is important. And even, even in a married couple, you know, in a married situation, consent is crucial. So
since we're there, tell us. Tell people how they establish that, like, maybe they've been married for 20 years and they want to explore sexuality, but also they want to set up that agreement of consent. What do they do? What does that sound like?
I mean, you know, they can even, there's a there's an actual form that they can even use if they really want to. But, you know, but make agreements and and, and really be able to say, like, this is something that I that this is a no. And we can even have a sheet that says, these are things that are definitely a yes for me, these are things that are definitely a no for me. And then there's a, you know, the gray area, the the maybe, or the yellow light, for example. But to really honor that, and to have those conversations that are very. Be explicit, but also very honoring too. Because sometimes, again, we don't talk about what we do. Yeah, most of us don't in, even in the closest relationships, we do things, but we don't
talk about them. And like you said earlier, doing it outside of the sexual experience, because that's probably a complicated conversation to have at the moment of, I think when, when things are, when aroused, when things people are aroused, it's much harder to then say, like no, and then they say, Oh, come on, come on. And you say, okay, judgment gets a little a little murky. Yes, exactly. And so having it outside of that that says, if I say no, you stop, you know, like we're
and that's, I want you to just send a married, you know, that's any, that's like, connection, yeah? Any connection, any, any, yeah, anything at all, yeah, yeah. Cuz our and, and also, then, on that note too, about if we're not liking the sex we're having and we're enduring pain, yeah? And, and that's a big, that's a big one, yeah. And, you know, a lot of my clients, you know, they'll, they'll talk about pain with me, and they'll say, but they'll say, oh, I want to do it because I don't want to disappoint him Yes, or I don't want to get a man, yeah. And that is, that is some time to do some deep dive into what you need to do for yourself to be able to recognize that you matter and your body matters, and how your feeling matters. And if something's not going right, please speak up. Yeah, please speak up and please acknowledge it within yourself. And then please speak up and say, you know whatever it is, this, this hurts, please stop and honor that,
I think, especially for people who have stress around sex for whatever reason, whether that's, you know, an upbringing that said sex was wrong, and then you have sex and you're like, Oh, I'm confused now, or whether there's been some negative sexual experience, I think for them, especially for all of us, but for them especially, to take back that safe control to say, like I'm not a victim in this sexual experience, like I am in no way out of control in this experience. Now I can hand you the control and ask you to do good things with it, but I still retain my right and my my, you know, integrity to say, No, I don't want that. And that can be something as simple as your partner seeking sex, and you saying, I don't want to tonight. And I think that we as women, there is that balance. We very frequently want to be the not want to, but end up being the martyr and saying, Well, I don't want to disappoint or I don't want to cause negativity. And that's a delicate balance, right? It's okay to have sex, even if you're not really feeling it. You know your partner wants and you're like, Okay, I'll have sex, but that's different than I don't want to, and I'm going to, because your body and your brain and your soul are going to react to that sense of, I'm doing this because I feel like it's a little bit out of my control. That's not good, and especially when we're linking that to sexuality, that's something that I see with my patients, is it causes a lot of problems that are quite hard to get past, because you just don't feel safe, you don't feel like you have any sense of control in sexuality,
and especially with like what you talked about earlier, when you're in your sympathetic nervous system, when you're in that state of fight or flight, fawn freeze, right? All those, that is not a that is not a good recipe, yeah
for sex,
yeah or or intimacy
or connection, connection, yeah,
yeah, absolutely so being in our rest and I just stay right parasympathetic and yeah and we need to be relaxed in order to get aroused. Yeah?
One of the questions that I get most for my patients is, am I normal? Am I normal? So we what is normal? Yeah,
well, I think when we can really sit with who we are and not look externally, yeah, really have a sense of our innate, innateness with both ourselves and then with our partners. What works in that context for us? What do we feel is appropriate? What do we feel is okay? What is satisfying for us? We look externally, so often, to our neighbors, to our best friend, to social media, to everything else out there, for a context of, are we okay? Are we normal? And I honestly think it's what is normal for you, what feels right for you, what
do you want?
What do you want, what feels good, and then also and what doesn't, and just because you don't like something that doesn't make you abnormal, yeah, yeah. So I really think that we need to debunk, you know, the whole sense of, like, who's doing what, outside? Yeah, because it really comes down to, what are we co creating for ourselves? And it shouldn't really matter what anyone else is doing, but what we choose to do.
So that leads into one of the other most popular questions is, what do I do if my husband and I don't have the same drive? And I think there that idea of sex drive is really complicated. Did, because people say because, because, I think if you think about the stereotypical couple, the man has the higher sex drive and the woman can be made to feel broken pretty easily if she doesn't have that matching sense of desire. So what is your approach in that situation where she's saying like, well, I feel like what's normal, and what I want is to have sex once a week, maybe twice a week. But according to my husband, that means my sex drive is low because he thinks we should be having sex every night. How do you address that then, if we're trying to figure out what's normal, but we're not necessarily on the same page with our partner, and I don't think that's necessarily a negative thing. I think sometimes it's great intentions on both sides, and no one knows. It's just he feels this and she feels this, and they're like, Oh, well, I guess I must be broken then, because more sex is supposed to be better, right? So I must be the deficient one somehow, yeah,
well, in in my view, and how I work with couples, and I have both, I have I have couples who have that scenario, and then also the reverse, where you know that the husband may have the lower sex drive than the wife has a hair or the partner. I don't think it's something where, okay, he's here and she's here. Well, she has to come up and and meet him, yeah. But also, the reverse is also not also possible as well. So I think really it comes down to, I think the lower sex drive person actually drives the drives the drives the situation, and it doesn't mean that. Okay, well, we're only going to have one one time for the rest of our lives. Let's see what else might be on the table for that. But I think we also have to come back to what are the Met what's happening with the low sex drive in both in both situations? Is there a medical condition? Is it a psychological condition? Is it a hormonal condition? And so I think it's important to look at those things also within that context. And if they want to change, yeah, because some people, they're not in a position right now where they want to Yeah, for a very for various reasons. And
don't you think it plays off of too the sense of connectedness in their relationship? Because I think that if someone feels really connected emotionally and in a relationship, and they're fine with the amount of sex, that that's kind of one scenario that's going to have one answer. But if someone is already feeling rent in their relationship, some some distance in their relationship, and then sex gets in there and becomes more of a barrier, because now he's mad that now we don't even have sex anymore, and she's like, well, you don't care about me, so why would I have sex with you? That that's a different answer for them. And so I think that addressing the connectedness can be really helpful.
And where's the foundation, right? So, so I think, you know, where is the intimacy, where is the emotional connection? Where's communication? If all of those are fractured, how do we try and rebuild those first to see then what sex can have a role in? Yeah, maybe down the line and addressing those, you know, and
to that point, you know, sometimes sexuality can be the thing that helps us feel more connected and more intimate before we fix our issues, or before we fix our conversations. You know, sexuality may be the common bond. So it's just such a different scenario for each couple, it
is definitely not a 111, size fits all solution. What's going to
be two people with each bringing their own side of it and then finding that negotiation that that meet up in the middle? Go, I'm going to ask you again this question, because I know that people are going to be like, I don't know if that was a satisfactory answer. This idea of what's normal? Yeah, I think that people want to hear like, but what's the average? So just tell us, like, what is the range that you see of the frequency that people have sex? Because I think this is a common conversation between couples where men are like, Oh no, daily is normal. I think most couples out there are having sex daily, which means you and I are not normal. That's right, I agree with you. I think I'm sure there are many. But what do you feel like is, I know there's a range, but if you can pin it down a little more to what you feel like is maybe a tighter average, a tighter average. Well,
we have couples who have sex on their birthdays. That's it, twice, twice a year. Okay, so
we've got that going
for us, right? Yeah. And then I have couples who have sex multiple, multiple times a day, yeah, almost every day of the week, yeah. And honestly, I would say what fits in with your schedules with work and family. So I don't know if even giving a range would be appropriate, yeah, because again, it goes back to what feels good for this couple in particular, and again, going back to do they like the sex that they're having? So. They're having sex every day, but the quality of sex is low. Is that? Is that good?
And define what you mean by low quality sex? Because I think some women are going to be like is this, I think it
goes back to do you like the sex that you're currently having? Yeah. And if that is a no, then there's a different conversation to have. And I don't care if you're having it once a year or multiple times a day. Yeah.
And I think that really goes back to where we started, with the sense of self and self experience of, do you know what brings you pleasure? And if not, can you explore that on your own and together to say, this is, this is what does it for me, I think a lot of couples get in that rut of saying like, Well, we do the same sex every time, you know, it's like, you do this, I do this, then we get there and, like, there we are. And for some people that can get that's fine, and for some people to get a little boring and so kind of exploring that if you're bored with sex, your sex drive isn't going to be probably very good. You know, you're not going to be
like, one person needs to speak up, yeah, you
know, someone does, and that's the only way that change is going to happen, is whoever it might be, being the one to say, oh, boy, this is tough. Yeah, this is tough. I feel nervous, but I and I want to enhance our relationship. I want things to go to be amazing. And, you know, I want things to, you know, some people are okay with whatever it is for the interim of their lives, and others are not. But unless we speak up, we can't make assumptions and we can't read people's minds. So yeah, sometimes it's a matter of, yeah, we have to step out of our comfort zone.
I love that. At the last question I really want to get to is low sex drive. You know, that's the other thing that comes up with my patients, especially because that's why they're coming to see me. And I'm, if we'll tag team this one, I think I'm going to go through, sort of our list of medical considerations, and then if you'll kind of go through your approach to a woman who comes and says, I just have no sex drive. So definitely, from the physical side, some of the obvious things are pain. You know, if you're having a bunch of pain with sex, it's not going to be very conducive to a high sex drive, like, Let's go do it again. So any sort of pain or discomfort that's people need to see me an OB, GYN, or someone who specializes in sexual health and wellness, because most of those things can be addressed. A pelvic floor physical therapist can also be really helpful with assessing pain and and pleasure and release of certain areas. I think medications, things like antidepressants, birth control pills, depot, you know, sometimes even the IUD. I think a lot of women are told with the Mirena IUD, oh no, there's no chance that's lessening your sex drive. And it's not common, but absolutely, if you feel like it's lessening your sex drive like it probably is. So other medications can do that. Sometimes, I think two hormone changes, so low estrogen, low testosterone, especially through perimenopause and menopause, are all things that that we're dealing with. Sometimes there are medications that we can use just for a low sex drive. So sometimes we'll go down that road. And then sometimes there are people who physically have some limitations to orgasm, to kind of that, that arousal with the anatomy. And so sometimes there are other things that we're we're looking at, but I would say that's a that's not a massive portion of the population. I think testosterone is a little more common in perimenopause and menopause. Like those people do, tend to get better once we give them vaginal estrogen and estrogen testosterone. I think a lot of people in perimenopause and menopause will see improvement, but there's also so much more to it. So will you talk about more of the psychosocial reasons for having a low sex drive? Yeah.
So I work from a framework, and I call it meebs, M, E, B, E, S, it's the mind. So anxiety, depression, stress, what's what? What are the thoughts that are plaguing that that's that's preventing, that, that, like I can't turn my brain off, sort of thing, yeah, and that, and that, even that conclude anything, it's distractions. It's, you know, what are we telling ourselves? It's shame. It's, you know, all of those things that are that our heads are just not allowing us to access our bodies, right? And then, and then, the other one is emotions, so heavy emotions, you know, if we're dealing with a lot of depression, grief, anxiety, again, those are going to prevent us from where again, we're going to be in that sympathetic nervous system. We're going to be in that fight or flight, fawn and freeze. I have to make sure those as well. That's going to take a toll, and that's going to not allow us to access that, that sense of desire, right? B is behavior and body image. So again, the huge ones body image, I don't, I don't feel good on my body. I don't. I don't want someone to see my body, right? I don't. I don't want to, you know, put myself out there. So that is going to have, I think, a huge effect. And a lot of and a lot of the people I work with, men and women both definitely have. Of issues with, you know, how they see themselves, yeah, physically. And the other two are, you know, energetic and spiritual. And you know, and energetic is just like your, you know, how your energy level, you know, and that comes back to that sexual energy, and that, that vivacious, you know, is it low? How do we, how do you get that back in line to where you can get some of that arousal back up on track, and, and
probably the energy between you and your partner too, right? Yeah. And
then the spirit, your your sense of self, like your essence, yeah, you know, whether it's from a spiritual, religious point, or just from your own, like your your own being, and, and when people question that, that can also take a, take a toll and and really have an impact on our on our sex drive.
I love that you said that religious and spirituality, because I think a lot of people feel like a lot of the educators and specialists that specialize in sex kind of are a little bit, maybe tone deaf to if someone really does have other approaches to sexuality, and they feel like, well, if I go there, they're just going to tell me to do things that I'm not comfortable with. And I think everything you've said shows that you can kind of bridge that a little bit to say, like, we can start where you're at and go within your safe zone and your your comfort zone, of your value system, and say, Can you explore this further in a way that feels really wonderful to you, but not having to go way outside where you're like, I'm not gonna do 50 Shades of Gray, you know, like, I don't think it goes back to feeling safe,
right, feeling safe and secure and trusting ourselves, yeah? And when we can do that, whatever that presents as, that's a great place to start. Yeah,
that's wonderful. Okay, we just have one more minute left, and I want to hear if you have any, like your top three sex tips that you have just for improving that sexuality or that experience in the bedroom,
know what you like. Number one, know what you like. And if that means you have to listen to erotica or you you want to try a pleasure product that looks really interesting, have some exploration within that for yourself so you know what you want, and number two is ask for what you want and express that to your partner and be open about that. Because the more that we can be open and really be confident within ourselves to do that, how beautiful that is, and how I think like, how sexy that is for someone to hear that. This is what turns me on. This is what I like. What a beautiful most partners are going to be so thrilled to hear that. Yeah, exactly. And I guess number three two is like, don't, don't be afraid to step out of a comfort zone and just have fun and have adventure and be able to laugh it off when something goes awry. Yeah, because there's always another opportunity to come back and try again. Yeah.
Well, I love that. Thank you so much for being here, Erica. I really appreciate your time. Tell us where people can find you and where they can sign up to work with you as a coach, because you're all over the country. It's virtual.
I'm virtual so, so I work very closely just down the street from where you are at uplift pelvic floor and wellness. So not related. Yeah, same, same there and but if you want to get in touch with me, most of my most of my clients, are virtual again, all over the world, and they can go to my website, which is sex coach slc.com or email me at Erca, at sex coach slc.com and
then you have a wonderful book that's about finding your sense of self confidence with with within sexuality. What's the name of that book, and where can people buy that? It
is called, feel sexy again, the ultimate guide to reclaiming your sexual confidence. Amazon, Audible, yeah. I think those are the two platforms. I think that's it. That's it. That's it. Anywhere you buy your books, yeah. But and again, that is that is almost like a love letter that I wrote to myself. And just being able to tell women in particular that you know you don't have to put yourself on the back burner, put yourself in front, fill your tank, and you'll have so much more to give and feel still have that energy and that sense of vivaciousness and purpose in your life. I
love that. And you also said that you had some resources you were going to share with listeners that we can put in our show notes for, I think, places to shop, or toys
to explore. Toys explore some amazing books, and just some great resources that people can go further and and if so, there's, if there's anything they want to know about, I'll have some great resources for you, for them to to be able to take a
look at Oh, wonderful. Well, I am so glad you're here. This has been such a great conversation. I think we'll definitely have to talk more and kind of dig in a little deeper, because there's so much more really we could talk about that that matters here. So thank you for your time. Well, thank
you. It's such a pleasure. Appreciate it.
Thank you. Well, we will be back next week for another episode with uplift for her, and if you are listening to this, remember that you can watch it on YouTube if you'd rather and like, subscribe, follow all of the things. And if this has been helpful for you, please don't hesitate to leave us a review that's really helpful for us, if you share it with a friend. Pass the word around. We really have a goal to educate women about their comprehensive health and wellness and addressing all of the elements that can really help you live your best life. So thanks for being here see you next time. Thanks for listening and come back next time for another episode, and remember this information is for education only and not intended to be medical advice. You.
