Thanks for coming, Brooke. I'm so excited to have you. I have followed you for a long time on Instagram and have been a big fan, so I'm happy to have this conversation supporting women and talking about parenting especially. Yes, I am so excited to have learned what you're doing and the way you support women in a different way.
Thank you. Thanks.
Well, let me just introduce you a little bit. Brooke is a writer, speaker and connector and enjoys talking to women about parenting, especially parenting teens, and also just supporting women in general with living good lives, happy lives. You are incredibly upbeat and uplifting and kind of let's just all do our best. Did I describe you okay? Yeah, I loved that, one of the things I like to say is real life with a hopeful twist. That's exactly the vibe that I get from you. So that's great. Awesome. Well, we're going to focus a lot on parenting, and then I think we'll kind of depart from that at some point. But will you tell us just a brief version of how you evolve into this? You know, some people have a really discrete career path where it's like, first I went to this business, but yours has not been completely a straight shot. Will you tell us just a little bit about your evolution?
Yeah, I've always been a writer, and so I've written for newspapers and magazines, and we all know those aren't really the way of the future. So when those went away and blogs appeared, I really wanted to keep writing. And so at that point, we lived in Michigan, and I started writing about fun things for families to do in Michigan, and it was a fun way for me to keep writing. And then we moved to Utah about 11 years ago, and there were lots of people talking about fun things to do in Utah, and they were doing it much better than I ever could.
And so I decided that maybe my writing days were over, and I was just going to be an editor and continue my career in that way, kind of behind the scenes. And then one day I decided to write an article about parenting.I have four boys. At that point, they were all 11 and under. It was really intense and I just felt like I just wanted to share something that I had learned. And so I wrote that article. I was really nervous to publish it. It took me about a month to hit publish on my blog, and it really resonated with people. Yeah. And when that happened, I thought, maybe I do have something to say or perspective to share. It felt very connective. And I enjoyed that. And so I decided to start writing on my blog. And that's kind of where writing about parenting and a little bit more introspection about who I am and the kind of life I'd like to live, some of the roadblocks to living that kind of life. I felt willing to be open about that.
And as I did that, I felt like there were a lot of people that were willing to come and share their stories about parenting. It felt pretty lonely, especially as my kids were getting older and it was fun to not feel so lonely. Yeah, I love that you describe yourself as a connector, because I do see that in your work, as you're not just putting yourself out there as the expert of like, here's the way you should do it, because here's what I think you're really facilitating this idea of community and coming together.
And let's help each other and let's figure out how to live through this crazy journey together. Yeah, I think one of the things as my kids were all so different, which most people's kids are and what worked for one didn't work for the other. And I value people's experiences so much. Those lived experiences. And so when I share a topic, I love getting input from the community because your child dating somebody might look different than my child dating somebody.
And the way you do it, your family might look different from me, and somebody reading might really resonate with you and what you've done, and it might be the answer they were looking for. And so I just think we're so much better together. Yeah, I love that. Well, let's start with just I want you to give kind of an overview.
If you had a captive group of women, which you do now, what is your kind of heart message to them? What would be the thing that you would say, gosh, I want you to know this about yourselves. I think the one thing I really want women to know is that
we were not meant to get it right from the beginning,
one of the most beautiful things in life is to be figuring it out as we go.
And I think in a world where you can tap into experts in every area, no one is the expert in your life. Yeah, only you are. Only you know what your kids really need. Only you know how your husband's going to react to a certain situation. Only you know what your values are.
and so I want to empower women to understand that.
And be willing to look for,
education and community. And then when you don't do it right, be willing to try again. I love that so much. And isn't it a balance of looking outside of ourselves and finding the information and then turning back inside and saying, what do I know is true? I'm definitely one of those that when things get hard, I'm looking for the expert outside.
Like who can I really? What podcast, what book, what? Who can I really talk to that's going to make this easier for me? And it never I mean, it helps for sure does provide a framework. And hopefully this conversation is helpful to people, but it still comes back to that internalizing and saying, what do I feel is best?
And also experiencing that as a progression to say like I am going to get it wrong and that's necessary, right? I, I can't get to the end of this, especially parenting journey. But but life journey, having gotten it all right the first time, number one, I wouldn't learn as much, but also it's just impossible. So, so. Right. And
when I think about, you know, those oldest children, I am one.
And I turned out just fine. Yeah. Even though my parents were doing it for the first time with me. And I think that's what's so beautiful about life is there's actually so much grace. Yeah, there's so much grace, and there's good things and bad things of parents who don't know what they're doing. And parents who maybe know too much about what they're doing.
And somehow we all figure it out. And so there's just so much hope and so much grace there as we realize, like, I'm on my fourth child and there are so many things that I feel like I'm doing so much better with him. And my other kids are just fine. Yeah,
it's so true. It's so true. Well, I, I'm going to be taking notes here because I have little kids.
My kids are all eight and under, but I, I, one of the things that I hear the most from people around me is how hard parenting gets as kids get older, as they turn into adolescents and teenagers and then young adults. And so I really want to focus on that, because I do think it's a struggle for a lot of people.
You mentioned earlier that when you wrote that parenting blog post and then since then, that your voice seems to resonate, you know, that style seems to resonate. What do you think? Is it about your style that really resonates, that hits that that need for women looking for parenting support?
I think just my willingness to say that I don't always get it right and just that honesty.
I think sometimes when you look to experts and they, act like if, if, then right, if you do this, then this will happen. And I have a variety of children who did not fit that mold. There really was like very little if then with some of them. Yeah.
and because of that, I think what I had to do was go inside and say, who am I?
Am I being the parent that I want to be, that I love to be, that I'm proud of even when things aren't working out, even when what is on the outside, somebody might say, oh, it doesn't look like you're doing anything right. Knowing that I am doing what's best for what I know in the moment, I look back and there's plenty of mistakes that I made and things I could have changed and done better.
And I didn't know. Yeah. And so having that confidence in your parenting that you are doing the best for what you know now, and
when you learn more or you learn better, you'll you'll do something different. And it still might not work out like you hoped. Yeah. And I think there's just a really it's really freeing to say, like, I'm going to continue to live by my values.
I'm going to continue to do what I think is best. I'm going to continue to learn. I'm going to forgive myself and others, and I'm really going to try to have joy in this process because sometimes I, I look at parents or women and, and they're so wrapped up in all the things that are going wrong that they miss all the things that are going right and the joy that can be had, even when it's even when it's tough.
Gosh, I feel like you just dropped like ten truths nuggets there of like we could dive into each one of those, you know, I think built on that foundation of anticipating and knowing you are not going to get it right. I don't think anyone would listen to that and be like, shocked, right? We would all know that. That's good advice.
But if we actually turn inward, I think some of us inside are like, but I don't like that. Like I just, I just get it wrong. I don't want to make a mistake. So yes, I know that's that's how this works is that we're going to make mistakes. And yet if we make a mistake somehow it's like, what?
Like why I didn't how can I how can I do this where I don't make mistakes. And so really internalizing that truth of through life. Right. But especially through being at being a parent is that you are not going to get it right 100% of the time, even probably 70% of the time. Right. And just acknowledging that and that the second big kernel in there is that kids are so resilient, right?
Your first child compared to your last child being parented by kind of a different person, right? As you evolve, your parenting style evolves. And yet they're both turning out okay. And I'm the youngest in my family. I have a big family, so I have nine siblings. I'm ten, and I think we all turned out okay, but differently, right?
We all learn different things, so I love that you emphasized that.
tell us then, what is it that is so difficult, especially thinking about this parenting adolescence? What are the things that people find difficult in that stage?
Well, I would love to just tackle a little bit about the idea that it's going to be so hard and that it is so difficult.
really just I think it depends on who you are. Yeah. And I think it depends on who your kids are. If you have very draining toddlers and sleep is really important to you and you're not getting enough of it, and you don't love, being isolated or home with people all day, you may think the toddler years are much harder than the teen years.
If you struggle relating to adolescence, if if adolescence was hard for you and you are bringing a lot of that past to them and thinking like, oh, our relationship is going to be horrible, I didn't like my mom at all. And it was so strained. And like, that could be mirroring what you might see. And so I just really like to encourage people that the teenage years are going to be hard, and they're also going to be awesome.
I don't think, oh man, I wish I could just go back to when everyone was little very often. Yeah, it's really, really fun to watch your kids grow and become, and it's fun to watch the same shows, and it's fun to do the same things. And it's fun not to have to listen to the music you're not interested in over and over in the car.
Yeah, there's some really great things about
a parent of teens,
the things that are difficult, for one, they're hormones are difficult. We all were teenagers once, and you know how irrational you were and how big things felt. And it's been proven that things do feel bigger. They are legitimately bigger for teenagers. So the highs are higher and the lows are lower.
And when you're the parent, that means you're dealing with high highs and low lows. And that can be exhausting. Yeah, sometimes. Not to mention we talked about perimenopause early. So you take yes. You take a mom who's in the in sort of the same transition, you know, of the highs being high and the lows being low. And then you put that together with a child who's whose body is also rapidly changing.
That seems like kind of a cruel combination, but I think maybe it gives us empathy and understanding. But you're right. That is just kind of an
unpredictable time from day to day. Yeah. And then I think, developmentally appropriate, they are pulling away from you, which they are supposed to do. Yeah. And that can be really hard on parents.
They often take it very personally. Yeah. Instead of saying they are looking for independence,
they want some of their own individualism. And and being able to let them have that within boundaries.
The other thing that's really difficult or that can be is teenagers need boundaries in order to feel safe
and they hate boundaries.
So in order for you to do what's best for them, you are often going to be someone that they're not enjoying or very happy with. And I think for a lot of parents today who want to be liked. Yeah, and want to be fun, those moments can be difficult. And then they think, oh, this isn't working. Where it actually is working.
Yeah, it's working. And and one of the things that I like to remind myself of and other people in the process is you can have boundaries and have love at the same time. Yeah, you can have a rule and be really fun at the same time. And, and I think for a lot of us, we thought they had to be separate, that they couldn't coexist.
And it's actually possible for those two things to coexist. And that's one of the things that I've been really working on in my parenting. Can you give us some examples? Because you've you've described this on Instagram, and I think you have really great examples of how you can keep the boundary, keep them safe, but then also still show love in that way.
Yeah. So let's say you decide that, your child should not have their personal electronic device in their room and that's going to bug them. Right? And if you think about it, even as an adult, every time someone gives you a rule, it bugs you. Yeah. Like, what do you mean I have to do that? Or your employer says, we now have to do this for the clock.
And and you roll your eyes and you think that's really annoying. And and they're going to give you that. Mom, that's so annoying. I need it for my alarm. All of my friends can have it. Just turn on my screen time, right? They're going to give you all those things and they're going to say, no, I need it plugged into my room, and they're going to be happy about it.
And every night you're going to be like, where's your phone? I need it to my room, and it's going to be this back and forth thing. And one of the things that I think some of us think is in order for them to think, I'm serious, I have to be a jerk about it. Yeah. Like, get it in here right now.
If you don't get in here, your phone's gone tomorrow, and and it has to be like that. But instead, we can still be loving and collective. We can say, I know it's a bummer. Yeah, I would feel like it was a bummer. And you are right. Nothing is better than an alarm clock on a phone. And this is annoying.
I totally understand and I really have to keep you safe. I have to keep you safe and you have to sleep. Sleeping is super important. It helps your mental health. It helps you grow. It helps you reset your brain. It helps you feel good the next day. And it has been proven that phones, even when they're not being used, interrupt our sleep.
And so I know you hate it, and I get why you hate it. And you got to plug it into my room when I love that, because it's putting it on nature and rules of being the the joint enemy. Right. The joint downside is like, gosh, yeah, this isn't that fun of a rule. I'm on your side. Yeah.
Like I'm right here with you. This is annoying. Instead of like, you will listen to me. I think one of the things that gets so difficult about that is when we as parents take it personally and take it as like, how dare you disrespect me, right? Like I said, this was the I. By the way, this is like me speaking it from yeah, first experience with my four year old.
You know, when it should be easier to not take it personally, especially when they're little and say she's for like she's supposed to fight back. Yeah, but I do think that can be difficult to say. How dare you disrespect me like you're supposed to listen to me because I'm the mom? How do you balance that of taking it personally?
Or sort of feeling like, why do I why do I have to work so hard at this? Like I said, this was the rule. You listen. End of story. Can you comment on that? Yeah. I think, for one, it takes practice. I think that just takes practice. It's a lot of doing. It's a lot of like propping yourself up and being like, it's not that they don't like me, it's that they don't like this rule.
Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. There's lots of rules I don't like either. I don't like that if I don't eat nutritious food that I feel like garbage. I actually don't love that. Yeah, life would be easier if we ate something else and felt amazing. Yes, I would love to eat some chips and have the same feeling as an apple.
Yeah, but I don't feel that way. And so I think it's okay for us to understand, like they're frustrated about the rule. They're not frustrated about me. And and they might not like me at the moment. And I can deal with that. And for someone who is not comfortable with that, believe me, that is coming from a lot of practice of hyping myself up to be okay with my kids not liking me or thinking I'm fine.
One of the things that's been really helpful is one of my kids at one point was very annoyed by me and my husband and some of the things that we were requiring. Very annoyed. And every year on Mother's Day, I do this little quiz with my kids where I have. It's my chance to kind of get to know them and who they are that year.
And it's it's really fun. And one of the questions in that quiz, and I write them down and we use them through the I keep track of them and they can see them as they grow up. And it's so fun. Anyway, so one of the questions is, what are my parents too strict about? And my teenager said nothing interesting.
And we had been like battling this and he'd been so annoyed and all of these things. And then when it really came down to it, what that said to me is he knows we have his best interest at heart and it's okay that he's annoyed by it. And I get that, and that's okay. And so keeping in mind, like, who do you want your kids to be in the future?
Like, and they're going to look back and say, yeah, my parents had some rules and they're definitely not. All my kids have said nothing, but we had had some pretty intense confrontations over the last like month or two with him where he thought everything was so dumb. And then when you really boil it down, what he realized is like, we're keeping him safe.
We're doing this because we care. We're doing this because we have his best interests. And that was a really good reminder to me that it might not feel good in the moment, but it's going to be right in the long run. Yeah, this I love this we've talked about on other episodes with some other guests. The idea of really being firm in who you are as an individual instead of
just who you are as a mom.
And that if our entire identity is as I am, the mom to my three children, that then if the kids do find problems with it, that and they think I'm not a good mom or they they think then there goes my entire sense of self, right? Or if I do something and do make one of those mistakes we talked about, there goes my sense of self.
I'm now a complete failure because my whole being is wrapped up in my parenting and therefore in their behavior. Yeah, and that's a really problematic connection. But what you're talking about, like, you just you just emanate this feeling of like being firm in who you are and understanding who you are. And this relationship with your children is very important to you, but it doesn't seem like it defines you.
You have plenty of other sides of yourself that are still there. They're still there. You know about them. You're going to go do your thing after your kids go to school and so if you are getting that sort of shaky relationship or kickback from your kids, that you can kind of
keep it separate and say they don't like this part of the situation, they may not agree with my parenting.
They may not even like me right now. And that's okay, because I have the rest of me. I have the understanding. I have the values, I have my conviction about. What's important is that, yes, I get that. Yeah. And I think to realizing that when someone acts like they don't like you because of the rules or the boundaries, they just don't really like the situation.
They actually love you. And they really were needing those. One of the things that Lisa DeMar says is they need something to push against. Yeah, teenagers need something to push against and their safety boundary. And and they want to they want to push against it. They want to rebel a little bit. They, they want to do something.
And, and if there is nothing to push against then they look for it other places. Then all of a sudden it's the law that they push against because they need something to push against. So having, having a curfew, having a phone rule, those types of things give them a way to to kind of push against something and say, this is dumb.
Yeah, but it's not. They're going to steal something, right? Like they're able to push against something else. And and I really liked when you talked about knowing who we are. I think that really helps as we're parenting teens. And I'd love to give you two examples. So when when your child comes to you and says, Will you buy me these very expensive shoes and you really want your kid to like you and you think shopping is fun also, and the shoes are really cute and and you understand the need and and then you go back and you remember, like being a teenager and how fun it was to be the one that maybe every now
and then had the thing, you know, so so there's a lot of things are going on here. But if you have this personal value of we're not going to be excessive and and this feels excessive, then one of the things that I've noticed is, as you know who you are, you're able to let your child into that and it's so much easier for them to understand some of those decisions.
So instead of like, mom, so annoying, she's not going to buy me these shoes or, you know, we have plenty of money, why won't you do this? Or how come we never have money? This is so lame. Instead, you're able to present yourself to your child as a whole self, and you're able to say, you know what? I don't?
I don't believe in being excessive. This feels excessive to me. Having those shoes feels excessive.
This is the amount that I feel good about spending on your shoes. If you want to earn the rest, like that's up to you. But this is what I'm willing to do, and you can walk away from that as a win. Like, I was able to tell my child what was important to me.
I was able to let him know what was realistically, you know, available for him. And then I was able to give him some ownership in order to get the things he wants. All those are really awesome lessons to be able to teach, and he may walk away and stomp and say, but my friends all have these and you're so lame, that's totally fine.
But in the long run, he's actually going to remember that his mom had some personal values of what was excessive, and that she encouraged him to work hard for things he wanted and or to let that go and say, you're right. Like, I actually don't care that much about those shoes either. Helping him figure out what's important to him.
Another situation. There was a mom who's, I guess, at their junior high. The kids were getting drinks, delivered a lot,
our moms were bringing drinks or bringing food or whatever. And the daughter kept asking her mom, like, Will you do this for me? Will you do this for me? And the mom kept giving excuses and saying, like, oh, I've got a doctor's appointment or I'm not going to be home at that time.
And,
she was so bugged by her mom and really, the problem was, is the mom didn't feel good about doing that, and so she wasn't going to do it, and she was just looking for an excuse. But what was more effective was for her to say, you know what? I don't really think that junior high students need drinks and food delivered.
I don't even go to lunch every day. So like for 13 year olds, to get to go to lunch every day feels like it's outside of my value. So I'm actually not going to do it for you. I would I would love to make you a lunch that you can bring, and I would love to plan a time to take you to lunch so we can have some one on one time together, because that is important for me and my values, like spending one on one time with you.
I'd love to check you out and go to lunch, but I'm not going to deliver lunch to junior high. And and it's so interesting that when we own what is truly important to us, what's central to us, our kids get it. You know, when we offer excuses and when we pretend to be someone we're not, and when we, like, play in that middle space, they're going to, like, take advantage of that all day long and they're going to be bothered and bug you until you say something like, I don't feel good about this, so I'm not going too well.
And it also binds the relationship closer. Instead of them thinking like, my mom is always too busy or my mom doesn't care, or she's not making this thing that feels important to me a priority. Instead, it bonded them together to say, oh, she hears me. She disagrees, but she's she's talking to me and and they see her as a whole person instead of just as the mom who's always too busy, or the mom who won't spend money or whatever.
Yeah, I think it's really important. I love that.
it seems like one of the struggles is also balancing. The difference between the developmental stage at that point is to learn how to do things yourself, and to make decisions for yourself, and to have freedom. And they know that, right? They feel that deeply that like mom, you always can try to control me or I get to decide, you can't, you can't decide for me.
Yet at the same time, we're trying to support that, but we're also trying to keep them safe and to draw boundaries. So how do you balance that? Establishing rules and boundaries and those safety barriers for your children, but also allowing them to have that freedom gradually and to develop into that sense of making decisions for themselves? I really love the idea of scaffolding and I think that's really helpful in parenting, like tweens and teens is understanding what they are capable like, which decisions they're capable of making and letting them have a lot of freedom to make those, and then also understanding where their limits are and then where they need to be pushed.
So a couple examples. You have a child who is highly engaged in life. They want to do all kinds of things. That is a great child to give more freedom when it comes to making decisions. Because you know that they want to be engaged. So letting them choose whether that engagement is with soccer or cello or,
running for student government like that, that's a great place to give them freedom.
I don't think you necessarily have to double down and say, well, I didn't really want you to run for student government. You know, take someone else who's opposite who never wants to engage in anything. And you know that as a teenager, it's not great for them to be sitting in their room alone all the time. And so they are not developmentally ready to make all those decisions for themselves because the decisions they're making are poor decisions.
Yeah. And so you say, hey, like, I really, really need you to decide what you want to be involved in.
Here are some options. I saw that this team is open for tryouts.
There's this place that's hiring for a job. There's this volunteer organization that's looking for volunteers.
I would love for you to choose one.
If you don't, I will choose one for you. And sometimes people are like, oh, that's so controlling. It's actually not controlling because they're not able to make that decision for themselves yet. And it's going to be there's going to be a wide variety. There are 12 year olds who have their life absolutely in control and are pressing forward, and they're 18 year olds who still have to have their parents wake them up for school.
There's a wide variety of what is going on there. And so understanding your kid and understanding like this isn't going to look like my neighbor's kid, and it's not going to look like my older kid. This is definitely individual, and I'm going to fill in the gaps where they're not ready yet.
At a really cool experience with a kid who whose parents scaffolded really, really well.
So he asked me to come speak to his youth group. And,
he was really brave. And he texted me on his own. He's, friend from, you know, a neighboring area, and he just said, hey, would you be willing to come speak? And I said, I would love to. And so he was so great. He was following up and he was saying, like, here's the poster we created.
And is there any AV stuff that you needed?
And then when I got there, he was already there and he got the chalkboard and he was so great. And I just sent a little text, his parents and just said, like, I was so impressed by the way he did this. And, and they said, well, it took a lot of reminding, but we wanted it like we wanted him to do it.
I thought that was so cool because he wouldn't have thought of all those things. He needed parents to remind him of. Like, you're asking someone to come speak. These are the things you need to do. This is how you need to follow up. You need to make sure that people come. But they allowed him to take the reins.
He was ready to do that and they could have done all of the work and made sure it was nice and done all the advertising and and I know his mom, she could have communicated with me the whole time and they allowed him to do that. And what I love about that is he was able to learn so much and have a really positive experience.
Sometimes when we just say, like, go ahead and do it without any scaffolding, that could have been a really bad experience. It could have been a waste of my time. It could have been waste of his time. People wouldn't have gotten what they needed from from the gathering. And so really understanding, like, where is my child at?
What does he or she need help with? How can I do that and allow him some independence to figure things out for himself, too? I that's such a great example. And I think, you know, with that example, he might have had a very different perspective of himself had he not had that scaffolding. You know, if it didn't go well, he now has a quote unquote reality about himself, a truth about himself, whereas he came out probably with a truth of like, I'm amazing, you know, like what I'm saying, he's not recognizing how much remind how many reminders he had or how much scaffolding he had.
He's just saying, like, I'm a pretty great kid and and isn't that what we want for our kids? Yes. So
I think it's one thing to talk about it conceptually, and it's another thing to actually be like, well, how the heck do I do that? Like, how do I, as a mom, know for people who may feel like they're not close to this style of parenting, that this is like, gosh, this sounds so good, but I don't even know what I would begin to do.
What advice do you have for them? Kind of just getting started and even speaking to the nitty gritty, like, does that mean spending ten minutes over your lunch break, making a list? Or like when and how does this actually come in to our lifestyle to take this approach to parenting? Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's hard and it comes with practice and then you're still not good at it.
Yeah. So like I'm speaking about all of these things and there are a million things running through my mind like I should I scaffold there instead of just taking over or, you know, so I think helping parents understand that, like it's not like, oh, I learned this and then I do it in every situation. It's like there are times when I'm like, wow, utter failure.
Yeah, I could have done that much better. But the more often you do it, the more natural it gets. And so I would say, just like jumping in and trying it in whatever you're doing, like you said, you're on your lunch break and you say, okay, I like this idea. I would like my kids to,
take more ownership for what we're doing in the home.
Right? I would I would like them to see needs and and fill them. Let's be honest, no seven year old is going to see the garbage. Just fill and say, I think I'm going to take the garbage is out today like I'm 45 and I don't do that right. Like I'm still like, could I stuff a few more things in there?
So. So what are some ways you could scaffold that with a seven year old? You could say, okay,
your job for the next week is any time you see any of the garbage is filled like that, is that is you, you're going to take those out. And every time I see a garbage taken out, like, we're going to do this, we're going to celebrate this way or whatever that is, you know, because they're going to need some scaffolding.
They're going to need a little like carrot dangling. And whether that's just your praise or whether you want or whether your child's very motivated by money and you can say, if I don't see one garbage bowl for the entire week, there is a $5 bill with your name on it, or there is ice cream on Saturday night. Whatever you want to do.
I know parents feel differently about motivation, and I'm a huge fan of understanding what motivates people and and using it. Yeah. Like it's it's the way of the adult world to. Absolutely. It's something that works for me.
But figuring out like, how can I scaffold this? I really want my kids to start seeing needs at home. And so can I put one in charge of garbage, and can I put another in charge of the shoes by the front door?
I hate those shoes by the front. They drive me crazy. So can somebody be in charge that every time they see a pair of shoes, they're running it up to somebody's room and figuring out, like, maybe you can make it work, and maybe they can start learning and maybe they can start taking ownership of something. And then when they when that's natural, maybe we move on to something else.
I'm saying these things and these are all things I wish I would have done when my kids were younger, I didn't really have this frame of reference. Yeah, I was mostly just putting out fires and figuring out how to survive. And there's times in our life that are going to be like that where, like, I wish I was doing that.
That sounds awesome. And maybe I can when I have a little more sleep or a little more breathing room, and realizing that the things we put effort into also make our lives easier too. So if we can figure this out, if we can get a partner on board, if we can put someone else in charge of it, maybe.
Maybe you're not the one to be in charge right now, but maybe your husband can. And maybe he has a little bit more patience in the moment. And so he's the guy for that. But figuring out how to do those small things that can make their life and your life easier. Yeah. And I think going back to what you said earlier is getting to know your children and their needs, and maybe your kids are really struggling with that idea of personal responsibility.
So you double down on chores or helping out around the house, maybe your kids are. They'll figure it out. It's fine. It's easier just to do it on your own. And you only have time to build one thing of scaffolding. So maybe you focus on, you know, homework or focus on, you know, whatever it is that comes up with adolescence that I don't can think of right now.
Yeah. But, you know, maybe that's getting the child involved or, you know, it you can customize it to the needs of your particular children instead of I think sometimes when we listen to
conversations like this or we follow parenting advice, sometimes it gets a little overwhelming because it feels like as a parenting expert gives us ten pieces of advice.
We are supposed to do all ten pieces because that's so important. They just told me how important that is. So I'm going to make sure that my kids have good manners and that they pick up the shoes and that they empty the trash, and that they get straight A's and that they're on the school board, you know, like, not the school board.
Yeah. School council. Yeah. Student council. And I think that can be really overwhelming for, for moms especially to feel like, well, now I'm just going to be a crappy mom because there's no chance I'm doing all of those things. Totally. And to give ourselves permission to find the ones that are the biggest bang for the buck, you know, the ones that really feel right to us and feel right for our children.
Do you have any thoughts about that? Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of finding joy in motherhood. Yeah. And the way you do that is by making the things that are important to you important. Yeah. And so if you feel like a successful mom when your family volunteers together, by all means set up a way to volunteer together.
And then at the end of the day, I don't want you to focus on the fact that all the dishes are still in the sink. Yeah, I want you to think about the fact that you just volunteered with your kids and allowed them to see their community in a different way, and I want you to, like, hold on to that, because actually, that's the thing that was most important to you.
Yeah. And there are going to be hundreds of things that are important to other people. Or maybe we feel like should be important to us that just maybe aren't. Yeah. You know, or maybe aren't right now. Yeah. And that's the other thing that I just when I had a lot of young kids, it was so hard. It was so hard to even make dinner or take a diaper to the trash can.
It was so hard. Yeah. And now that people are a little older and can take some responsibility for things, there's a lot of things that used to be so hard that aren't so hard anymore. And I think there's a time and season and so when you have the energy, when you have the vision, when you have the time, just reminding yourself to reengage in the things that are important to you.
What do you want your kids to learn? I mean, we talked a little bit about, you know, the manners. And one of the reasons why I wrote that book was because I wish I was had a bite sized nugget to teach my kids
once a week,
I feel like that would have made it easier on me because there were things I wanted them to know.
But I was like, I literally cannot get my brain to focus on what that is, how to do it, how to teach it, how to reinforce it. It was just too much. And so we all do that at like 2 a.m., right? When you say they're laying, they're awake, realizing all the things that you should have done yesterday that you didn't do and all the things that you want to do, and then you wake up and forget all of it and then go back into just staying afloat.
So having those, those, those, that scaffolding for us as parents to then what can I do to make this easier for myself and letting some things go and bringing in the tools that make it easier for things that are important to us. Yeah. And really, really focusing on that. I one of the things that I loved and loved with young kids is reading was super important to me, and always has been.
And so that was sort of like a non-negotiable for me. Like we were going to read together and my kids were going to read before they went to bed. And that was just so important to me. And so sometimes at the end of the day, there was like, not all that many good things for me to celebrate. But like we read, we read together and my kids were reading books as they were going to bed.
And and that was a win. And so realizing like, we cannot have 100 things that are important to us, yeah, we just cannot. And so choose a few of those things that are really, really important to you as a mom. And, and it might be kids that contribute around the house, and it might be kids that volunteer or kids that read or kids that are really kind and and you're going to put that energy into those things that really matter.
I had a friend whose mom passed away, and she was not always the ideal mom. And what I loved about being at her funeral was at the end of the day, their kids knew, like those three things that their mom did really, really well. And that was what they focused on as she was gone was the way that she made life so magical for them, the way she was so fun for them.
That was that was who they remembered. And so I think sometimes it can get really, really hard on ourselves. And really there's only a couple things that matter. And leaning into those things that do. Yeah, I love that.
So one of the things that I think comes up sometimes is this idea of
our kids know we love them.
I think sometimes we get it wrong and we think our kids know we love them. If I meet all their needs or if I do what they think I should do, what do you think is really the what are the kind of most important pillars of creating a relationship with a teen or a pre-adolescent who knows that we love them like crazy, you know, because there's good days and bad days and we lose our mind sometimes and we say things that we shouldn't say and we we don't get it right so much of the time.
What are sort of what are those
mile markers are really important pillars that create that loving relationship with a child.
I can think of three, just like off the top of my head. The first one is there needs to be positive
communication. Yeah. So especially one of the things that I find with parents of teenagers is there is a lot to correct.
Yeah, there's just a lot to correct. And and while we're correcting lots of things, we forget about how much we as humans need the positive to. Yeah. And so just kind of keeping in mind like five positive interactions for everyone. Negative.
That can be something that's just good. And you're not going to be tallying and keeping track of that.
But you know, thinking to yourself like, you know, I just kind of freaked out about their homework. Like I better balance it with. And it doesn't always have to be words. Sometimes it can be like watching a show together or cheering for them at their game or whatever that is. But like, I need to have five positive interactions for every one negative that I'm doing, and that can be harder than people think.
Yeah, depending on who your kid is in the moment and what's going on, we should aim that direction. And so really looking for that balance. The second thing is not forgetting about physical affection. It's really easy as kids become bigger than you are to forget that they need like the hugs and the rubbing of their back and and how important that is just to for humans in general.
You think about it, if a kid doesn't have a girlfriend and his parents don't hug him anymore, and he's kind of like, you know, maybe not on a team where he's given high fives a lot. Like he could go through an entire day without touch days, multiple days. Yeah, yeah. And so that's been something that's difficult for me.
I've all boys and they once they get big you're kind of like, is this weird? You're like, you don't seem to like be dying for a hug. And and and I'm not an especially, like, physical person. And so that's something that I've had to really, like, make myself remember that like, this is important. Like, sit closer, put your arm around somebody, rub their back, and some kids are going to act like they don't like it, and some kids really don't like it.
And I think it's totally fine to say I understand that you don't love this.
humans need physical touch, so I am going to hug you for eight seconds. For you. It works for them. Yeah, yeah. Or I'm going to rub your back. Like, whatever works for you will. We'll figure out. But I think it's really easy for kids to act like they don't need it or want it.
But it's scientific research, like we need to be attached to sort of closeness that. Yeah. So so that's another thing. The third thing is to find things that they enjoy and do them with them or get excited with them.
I think sometimes we forget that they're just humans, and they just want to have someone that cares about the things they care about.
And so even if you don't love Minecraft, like learning a little bit more about it or being like, what level did you get to or whatever that is, we don't have to do it with every single thing they love, but definitely finding ways to connect on that level with them.
One of the things that I love doing is like, even just like rebounding the basketball for him or, you know, a lot of this is boy centric because I only have boys.
But, you know, I know like moms of girls, they'll still they'll keep doing their hair like trying a new style, or they'll let him show a tutorial of a makeup thing that they found on YouTube or something like that, like, instead of always, like, brush him off, like, you don't need makeup. Why are you looking at makeup stuff, like being like, oh, that's really interesting.
That's creative. What do you like about it? You know, engaging with them that way. And then the fourth thing I would say is, to not be afraid to apologize, is to just say like, hey, I did not do that well yesterday, and I'm sorry about that. Like, like I'm going to try again or the next time this happens.
Like, I need your help in figuring out how I can approach this better. Like, that obviously didn't go well. I don't really have any answers, so can you help me figure out, like, how this might work better in the future? Yeah, it sounds like you're just saying date your children. I mean, it really is that similar effort of, like, proactively building that relationship and getting to know them.
I think that's one of the things that can get so difficult is when as moms, we feel like we're barely staying afloat. You know, that our we're just about drowning is it can be just survival where you're just keeping everyone alive. And I think for sometimes that's okay. It's totally fine. How do we course correct when it feels like we're in.
This is just me asking you. Yeah. Because this has been sort of you know you go through good times, then you go through times when you're like gosh I have just been spinning my wheels. You know, I've just been kind of showing up and checking the necessary boxes. How does one course correct when it's like, okay, get some new life into me, get some some recharge there and really start re interacting in that way.
Yeah, I think like for one it's just the self-awareness of, of this is what life is right now. And I need to do something different.
There's times in my life where I'm like, this is what life is right now. And this is just how has life has to be right now and
it will ease up in, in a week or whatever that is.
You may have a deadline, or you maybe have a parent who's very sick or, you know, things like that where you're like, I know I'm not being the best mom ever. Yeah, and I can't do it right now. Yeah, but but I will be I will be back, you know, so, so getting some grace for some external circumstances that sometimes can't be changed and then just being self-aware when there are things you can change.
One of the things that I feel like I can
often do better is
managing my screen time when my kids are around. And one of the things that's really interesting as kids get older is no one is needing you like they did before, and so it feels very easy to just continue on with your work, like pull your laptop out, which I've been doing.
This is a very heavy month for me with work and and so, my teenage teenager even said like, wow, you're working a lot and I'm okay with working a lot. Yeah. And nobody should really be working, like, 19 hours a day. Yeah. That's not that's not a healthy example for me. Is that for anyone? And so if he thinks he leaves for school at 730 and I'm working, and then he comes home from practice at 730 and I'm still working or eight or not, whatever it is like, that is not a healthy example for me to set for my kids.
Whether whether I've taken breaks before, this is all he's seen. And so just being aware of that and being able to say like this is when I turn my work off, this is when I'm going to do something different.
Sometimes for us, it's like making a different plan, like, hey, you know, we haven't spent that much time together.
So every first Thursday we're going to bowl. Yeah. Like, we need to have fun as a family. I think sometimes people forget about that. Like as kids get older, a lot of their fun is had with other people, but they need to remember that their family has fun together too. And so looking for ways to add fun. Looking for ways that we all have to be engaged whether we want to or not.
One of the things that was hard for me is as as a woman who loves to communicate, I think that like sitting in chatting is super fun. My boys are like, that's fun for a few minutes. Like, we did that at dinner. That doesn't feel fun to me anymore. And so
figuring out ways that I can also have fun and like I said, like being able to rebound the basketball.
We our family really likes to go on hikes. And sometimes that doesn't feel like, oh, let's do this. You got to force it. And I think that's the way good things are in life. Most good things we kind of have to force and then we remember how much we love it. Yeah, yeah. This is all such good advice.
Tell me. I loved what you said at the beginning. You know, talking about having a positive outlook on and on having kids come to this age. But also, you mentioned that you just like to find joy in parenting. Will you tell us a little bit more about that and kind of how that has worked for you to find just joy in the parenting when it is messy and it is hard and it is heavy sometimes.
Yeah. I mean, I feel like I, I feel like joy is practice and our mind can do amazing things. We can see a situation and say like, this is the worst. Or we can see the exact same situation and say like I'm so lucky, this is the best. And, and it's been a lot of work for me to be able to see a situation and say, this is awesome.
Like you can have a bunch of your kids friends over and you can say, oh my gosh, they're so loud, they're making a mess. This is so frustrating. And
the time they're gone, you can be so sick of everything. Or you can be like, how fun that my kid has friends. Yeah, like I feel so grateful that he has friends.
And I feel so happy that they feel comfortable here. And it's a mess. And you know what? I mean? I just help my kid clean it up so we don't have to stay a mess forever. And and so there's just a lot of different ways where we can see our situation. And a lot of that is finding gratitude and whatever we're in, we can say, oh, this is, you know, this is so busy right now, I don't know how we're going to do all this busyness.
And, you know, or we can say, like, I'm so lucky that we have the resources to be able to put our kids in these lessons. And what a lucky thing for them to be able to learn this sport and learn this art, and be able to get good at something like what a privilege they have to be able to do that.
And how lucky that I get to watch them do it. Yeah. And so I think a lot of that is just really like a lot of gratitude practice and then infusing things that I love into my life. So I love reading. And so every time we read a book, I was looking forward to that. I was like, I can't wait.
Like I would choose books that I wanted to read out loud. And I was excited to share those books with them.
I love to be outside. So even though everybody was complaining we'd go on a hike, they'd end up loving it. I'd end up loving it. So looking for ways that you can put things you love into your life as often as possible.
It's going to be really hard to be happy and find joy when everything you do feels like a task. Yeah,
on the flip side, you can also turn joyful things into tasks if you have the wrong attitude. Yeah. About it. Yeah, I think so many people it's so I should say it's so easy as women, probably especially to kind of lose our grounding and to just have that to do list and just to say, okay, I've got to get them shoes, I've got to get them, you know, lunch tomorrow.
I've got to sign up for the thing. And, you know, it does become this just endless task list. But it's in, in service to others, which can be good. Right? We all want to give us give our service and we we approach it that way. Like, I'm so grateful that I get to raise my kids and do these things.
But it it seems like that pendulum can swing too far where you you're talking about bringing in things that you love. Well, what if we lose track of that? You know, if you get too far over where you're just thinking about meeting everyone else's needs? I have many patients who aren't exactly sure even what they would bring in.
Like, how would I do this in a way that I love and where is my sense of self? So coming back to that and being clear with like, what do you like? Yeah. What do you want to do? And do it with the kids or without the kids, but finding those elements of joy and and finding eventually that common ground where you can do it with them.
Yeah. Yeah. I remember, with young kids,
my day was so much better if I called a friend and we met at a park. Yeah. And so I did that almost every day, which means that my house was kind of messy. Yeah. And like, sometimes I was rushing to get dinner and, you know, things like that. But I really loved being with friends at the park.
I loved everything about it. And so I think sometimes,
moms can easily say like, oh, that's like not a good use of my time, or I don't know if I'll be able to get everything done. If I do the thing that's enjoyable for me. And there's time. Yeah. There's time. Well, you feel like the other things are more important, right?
You prioritize them above your own happiness and sometimes just saying this will happen today and everything else is just going to fall lower priority than that. Yeah yeah yeah. Not off. Yeah. Just one step down. Yeah. And maybe we just clean on Saturday because that's, you know, what we need to do. Or you know, maybe going to the library is really fun for you with your kids.
Or maybe you're like, it was an absolute disaster. Yeah. Like this. It made me so mad to take them to the library. So I care about having books, but I'm going to do that at nighttime. Yeah, after someone else can have kids. And I'm going to go and I'll bring those books home and we'll have, like, a lovely time doing at home.
But I cannot do the library with them again. Like they're too loud. Everybody's shushing them. It doesn't feel comfortable. And so really kind of evaluating, like, what am I doing in my life right now that I love? Make sure you keep doing it. What is in my life that I have to do? Is there a way for me to do it better where there's more joy or where it's not so draining?
And then are there things that I could cut out that actually, like are not that important? Yeah, yeah, I love that permission to just find the joy in it and to find joy in yourself instead of checking every box on that endless To-Do list. Yeah. Is there. And as we wrap up here, is there kind of I want to come back to that question of overarching sort of that message that you want to share now that we've had this big conversation, is there anything else you want to say wrapping up that you just want women to hear?
Yeah, I just I think you're doing better than you think you are, I really do. I felt like I was really hard on myself for a lot of years and even still. And the thing is, is you're doing better than you think you are. And every time you think like, this isn't good, like, I would love for you to balance it with, but this is.
Yeah. And that's really just that's life. There's going to be good. There's going to be bad. And we're going to of course, correct and fix and we're going to try new things. And, you know, I think as we do that, finding joy through that can help us really understand that. Like this role of motherhood is more about relationships and it's more about like figuring out I've figured out who I am through motherhood in the most beautiful way.
And come into myself in a way that I never would have expected. And I think that that's what motherhood can do for you when you use it that way. And I think,
there's a lot of joy to be had in every stage. And so one of the little catchphrases I like to remind people of is like, marinate in the good moments.
Like a lot of times we sit in the hard and the bad and the yuck, and we want to like, turn that over and over. And I think so often we forget to like, just sit like, sit in that good moment when your kids are happily playing or when you see that there was a principle that you taught that they're putting into practice, or when you're doing something you love with them, like sit in it like, don't, don't jump up, don't clean up, don't get your phone out.
Like, if we're not present in the good stuff, we're going to forget that there's any good stuff to be had. Such good advice. Well thank you so much for being here. I feel recharged and kind of a regrouping and kind of have taken lots of notes and, and I'm just so grateful for this conversation. I think it's been really helpful.
So thanks for your time. Yes. Thank you. It was so fun. I hope it's helpful to the women that listen. And I'm with all of you perimenopausal women figuring out our hormones and our teenagers and all the things, all the things all at the same time. Will you tell us how we can find you? Yeah. So I have the most amazing community on Instagram.
It's at Brook. Romney writes that the best parents that are so willing to help and support and love, it's it's my favorite thing. And then I have the Modern Manners books, which some people may have heard of, but it's we talked a little bit about it, but it's my way to help people,
feel like they're teaching in a way that feels connective and helpful.
So we've got one for kids, two for teens, and so wonderful. It's so fun. I love them and they've been so useful for families. And then I am just coming out with a new game that I am thrilled about and cannot wait. It'll be here in December. It's like it's kind of a get to know you game, right?
Yeah. For your action game. Yeah. And it's actually like Game of Ice connection. So it's not just conversation cards. My boys would not do that. But they will compete and and it's really fun to see them getting to know each other, getting to know themselves and being able to win. So the perfect combination. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Thank you.
